Thursday, December 10, 2009

Definite Permanence, my interpretation of the visa process

I am applying for permanent residency, called definite permanence (permanencia definitiva) in Chile. I previously had temporary residence (residencia temporaria, a 1 year visa with employment flexibility, after which you can either renew for 1 year or apply for permanent residence at its expiration). The definite permanence is processed in around 6 months, and lasts for 5 years. 30-45 days after applying you should receive a copy of the application form in the mail that says “en tramite” and grants you the legal status under your previous visa until your new one is processed.

For me, going through this process was somewhat difficult, especially to organize all the information and understand exactly how to go about each step. I made a number of mistakes, many of them were even things I was misinformed about by the actual officials/websites running the various processes. I am including these frustrations and mistakes along the way because its possible others might be led in the same direction and need to sort it out. I do not yet have the visa in my hand, so the end is not yet in sight, its still possible more information is requested of me or even that I am denied.

I applied following the
Pcorreo-10 form for profesionales o tecnicos que trabajan a honorarios o con contrato (professionals or technicians that work on a fee base o hired contract English Spanish). I am essentially a fee base (freelance) employee that sends boletas (like paystubs used for tax purposes) to each company that owes me money, and they retain and submit the %10 taxes. Applying for permanent residency under different circumstances will require you to submit different information.

It is important to note there are a couple small differences between the English and Spanish versions of the document of requirements. I would hope they accept both versions equally and soon invest in updating both versions equally. For instance, the English version says you may apply 30 days before the expiration of your previous visa, the Spanish version says up to 90 days ahead of time. Also the English version requests your passport number on your photos and the Spanish version requests your Chilean RUN, which you will have already if you are going from temporary to permanent residence. Lastly the application form itself differs in a couple of questions.

Disclaimer: this is my personal interpretation and not an official source. I wanted to collect and share this information to be able to help friends and offer reassurance and ideas for those going through the process of temporary residence to definitive permanence. Many of the things required are somewhat ambiguous and the time and money involved is not apparent on the form. The information here is not official, and may change at any point so its important to check the original sources. Questions can be directed to Extranjeria 600-626-4222, 9am to 4pm. I’ve never been put on hold more than a minute or two. ***


From here I will follow along the required and unmentioned steps.

• Fotocopy of passport. The pages with your picture, signature, and previous visas in Chile.
• Fotocopy of certificate of registry
(certificado de registro) issued by International Police. This form was given to you when you registered at the International Police the first time (probably a year ago if you’ve had the temporary visa). It has your picture, signature, a stamp, etc… You should already have this form, though they may allow you to request a duplicate copy.
• Certificate of police record (
certificado de antecedents), from the Civil Registry (Registro Civil). This requires waiting in a long line, and the cost was $1,050 pesos.
• Certificate of Trips (
certificado de viajes) - also from the International Police, but this must be recent. It’s a list of all of the times you have entered and exited the country (I think just by plane). This is immediate and very fast to obtain in Valparaiso, the process takes a few minutes and the Valparaíso location rarely has anybody waiting. It cost me $800 pesos. Many have told me that the International Police in Santiago can have longer lines.
• Photocopies of both sides of your Chilean ID card.
• 3 recent photos, 3x2cm. with name and passport or
cedula ID #. This can be done at little photography studios all over the place, in Valparaiso it usually costs $1,000 pesos and takes about 10 minutes if there isn’t a huge line.
• A letter in which you indicate your motives for applying for this visa and how you have created bonds with Chileans. Personally, I chose to talk about my boyfriend, my community sports activities, and my work and how I have integrated into these peoples’ lives and the community as a whole. It was a little over a page long. I wrote mine in Spanish, English might be accepted because at the end of the form it says documentation in English, French, Portuguese and Italian does not need to be translated. Then again, who knows if they actually liked my letter.

• Legalized copy of your degree. This process is not fast nor easy. It may be necessary to have a parent or someone who lives closer to your university and Chilean consulate be in charge of receiving and sending your diploma from one place to the next. I lucked out- I faxed my request for a duplicate diploma exactly 1 month before I received my document (signed and stamped by the various US officials) in Valparaiso (with nearly overnight UPS that cost US$70! But my mom insisted on mailing it with someone that made me sign to receive because I have had lots of trouble receiving mail, and it was a matter of time).
Legalization, according to the Chicago Consulate (check your own for variations), consists of:
1. Document must be signed by a school official (principle, counselor, registrar) before a notary public. My university said it could take 3 weeks to print a new diploma though luckily mine got processed by chance in just one week. Keep in mind that as an adult you may have to be the one requesting this document instead of your parents, and may require you to fax a credit card number or mail a check.
2. The signature of the Notary must be certified by either County Clerk or Secretary of State, the Secretary of State Calls this process Apostille. (This is incorrect on the Chicago Consulate document. The Secretary of State does not call this process Apostille because the Apostille processing is used for documents for countries that signed the
Hague Treaty in 1961, which Chile did not. From what I gather, the correct process to request from the Minnesota Secretary of State is the “Certificate of Office”, it would be necessary to make sure each state offers this or something comparable.) In Minnesota this could be done by mail or in person, and cost $5 per form.
3. The document must be sent, with a $12 money order, to the Consulate General of Chile.
4. Please include a stamped, self-addressed envelope for the return of the documents to you.
5. Validate this document by legalizing it in the Foreign Affairs Ministry of Chile, Legalization Department at Agustinas 1320, 1st floor, Santiago. Monday to Friday, 9am to 2pm. Its about a block from La Moneda. I arrived early and there was nobody in line, the process was basically getting my document stamped on the back, and I didn’t have to pay anything (besides the $6,000 bus and metro to and from Santiago… if you live very far from Santiago check the website for alternatives through the local government or ways to mail it).

• “You must prove the income received during the full period of the visa (see point D)” Ironically, point D asks for you to send the boletas from only the past 3 months. But later I got a follow up request asking for every single boleta I’ve sent in 2008 and 2009.

(Part C. is documentation for dependents.. NA in my case)

D. Proving Income
1. For Freelance Professional or technician (me)
• Photocopy of
Iniciacion de actividades (Business Initiation Certificate). I’ve been told you get this when you originally register with SII, though I couldn’t find it anywhere, or you can print a copy from their website. Go to, under the tap “registro de contribuyentes”, go down to “inicio de actividades”, and “consulta de estado de solicitudes”
• Photocopy of the
boletas de honorarios sent in the past 3 months (again, I sent the previous 4 months just to be safe, but they sent a follow up letter asking for my boletas from the whole year. These can be reprinted from the SII website, look for “consultar boletas emitidas”)
• Copy of the last annual tax declaration. I actually have not yet done an annual declaration because I started using
boletas in January, right after the previous year and tax period ended. For this reason I couldn’t include this information. On the phone extranjeria confirmed that this situation is OK and you need to include a note explaining the reason why you cannot include this form. (Again, I did this upon their suggestion, but the follow up letter again mentioned sending in myboletas from the previous year so I am wondering if maybe I didn’t do it right. The first time I inserted a blank paper with a paragraph about this, the second time when I resent it I printed an extra copy of my Business Initiation Certificate, circled the start date in January, and handwrote a comment)
2. For
professional o tecnico que tiene contrato de trabajo (For a hired professional or technician). (From how I understood the form, this should not apply to me because I am a freelance professional and instead followed the steps in #1) It asks for your work contract and certificates of your health insurance and pension funds showing payment for the past 12 months.

Don’t forget to download and fill out the application form. Beward that the English and Spanish versions are slightly different.

I sent my papers by
Correos Chile (just under $2,000 pesos and supposedly overnight) and it was registered by Extranjeria 9 days later. On that day a letter was sent out asking me for 3 more things within 30 days. The letter arrived at my house after 2 weeks, leaving me only about 15 days to return these forms:
• “
Certificado del empleador accredit vigencia contrato legalizado ante notario y original” (Basically, a notarized certificate your boss writes up saying you still work for them, since when, etc... *I don’t know what etc. means so please do more research yourself if you need one of these. ) I was not expecting this, I’m not sure if its something originally requested that I missed or not. It also kind of surprises me because supposedly as a worker not “for hire” this seems kind of unnecessary. Luckily I am still with the company I applied for my temporary visa with. I don’t know what would happen if you are not under contract anywhere. About the certificate- I was misinformed the first time on the phone. The second time I was told this certificate needs to include start date, end date, and payment. A 3rd and 4th inquiry about this would be ideal as I’m not sure I have it right yet.
Boletas 2008/2009 On the phone they confirmed they want ALL of my boletas.
• Pay $42.574 pesos at any bank and mail 2 of the stubs (it says which is which on the side) to them with the extra information

Also included in the letter was one copy of my application form with an
“en tramite” stamp that can be used to prove that I am still legal under the same restrictions of my previous visa (temporary residence) meaning I can work and carry out other activities, enter and exit the country, etc… If for some reason this letter takes too long to arrive and you need to leave the country beforehand, you can go to extranjeria before your trip to get this form or other proof in writing.

So that’s that! Seriously, start this process months before your visa expires.
Remember that information and requirements change, and I am not necessarily going to be able to reflect all those changes in this blogpost. If you are applying under different circumstances (i.e. through marriage, from a student visa, etc… the requirements are NOT the same)

If you have gone through this process (or a different one) and would like to comment, clarify something I might have misunderstood, or ask a question, or …vent, feel free!
Please be specific though if you are talking about different circumstances (using a different form so as not to confuse).


A Shark in Shallow Water said...

This information is pure gold.

I'm thinking of going for a second temp. visa next year and if I'm still here (hopefully not in Santiago)in 2011 then I'll go for a residency. By that time, I'll have built up a nice record of boletas to prove my earnings.

When applying for my temp. visa I legalised my CELTA cert. at the British Embassy and then took it to Agustinas. Neither process was particularly difficult but the bandits at the British Embassy relieved me of CHP$30,000!! That seemed to be enough. I didn't need to refer to my university qualifications.

One thing I discovered is that no, one person actually knows what the procedure and requirements are. I think you've proved this by your difference in Spanish/English analogy.

To throw in my two cents, when I applied for my temp. visa the application was originally rejected. This was quite prompt. They returned all my documents and a letter of explanation by registered mail.

I am not not lying when I tell you this. The letter started off by saying (I'm translating and paraphrasing here):
This application has been rejected for the following reason(s):

Document missing

That was it. They didn't say what document they meant. I double checked the list (in Spanish). I phoned them.
'Oh, yes. There was a document missing, sir'.
Okay, what?
'My screen doesn't say'

Anyway, I don't know where the idea came from but I reapplied with exactly the same paperwork but with the addition of a notarised
offer of work letter.

I like how you can check your process online.

lydia said...

Nobody in Chile has ever asked me to see my teaching certificate at all.
I didn't have to get my degree legalized for temporary residence. Nobody asked for it, it either wasn't on my form or I overlooked it, and nobody mentioned that I didn't have it. I don't know why not, because looking back now the form says its necessary.

I worry that they wouldn't be so lenient for permanent residency.

You know, I was kind of happy that I could check my process online, but, at least in my case, it doesnt tell me anything I didn't already know. It always says its processing.

It is completely possible I will be rejected, this post isnt necessarily the recipe to get accepted, just how I found my way about gathering all the stuff.

Thats a good paraphrase, haha: no one person actually knows what the procedure and requirements are.
Neither do I so I hope people use this as supplementary and don't just take my word for it!
(So true. I always tell the story about 2 years ago I had a potential HUGE problem and wanted to make sure I sorted things out so I called 7 Chilean consulates in the US with a question and got 4 yesses and 3 nos!) I think different people often interpret these things very differently.

Marmo said...

Supongo que lo saben, pero si no, es algo importante. Cuando emiten boletas y les retienen el 10%, ese impuesto está sujeto a una posible devolución al término del periodo tributario (en abril de cada año). Si les devuelven el impuesto, se genera un cheque a nombre de ustedes con el valor devuelto, que no es nada despreciable. Probablemente ya lo saben, pero, sólo por si acaso...

Maeskizzle said...

So glad I don't have to do this process. I was about to when V's immigrant visa was approved.

And I was going to do it through marriage which is a little different, but is free ;)

Turns out I don't even need to get another temporary visa ;) Mine expires in Jan and we are leaving the beginning or March so at the Extranjería they told me to get an extension in Jan the week before my temporary visa expires. Yay!

And, yes, when I used to do visa paperwork in Valpo, the International Police office there never had anyone in it. I never had to wait. Whereas here in Santiago, there are always 50-100 people waiting.

Sara said...

I was reading through it and it looks like you currently need a job and proof of income, but someone told me that becuase I have the temporary residency I could apply for permanent residency without all that. Do you know?

Alessandra said...

Did you need more than this for the temporary visa (for 1 year)?
How long did it take? I hope to hand in the paperwork early May and move down mid/late June 2010. Do I need to have bought my ticket before or after I get the visa?

*as you said it's different for every case, but just as a starting point*

Valid passport (Valid at least for the term of the visa)

Health certificate issued by medical doctor stating that applicant is in good health and has no contagious diseases. Also, the applicant must present certificate of Blood Test HIV issued by a Health Department, Laboratory, or private physician.

Police certificate issued by the FBI, stating that the applicant has no records.

Three recent passport photographs (2" x 2")

Proof of financial solvency must be presented. (Bank and commercial records, etc).

In the event the applicant is married to a Chilean national, proof of marriage must be presented.

This visa is valid for one year, renewable in Chile and allows the applicant to work.

Fees varies according with applicant's nationality.
The cost for US national is US$ 400.-

lydia said...

marmo- si, pero todavia no se exactamente como hacerlo. pero me han contado que el proceso es muuucho mas facil que en los eeuu!

maeskizzle- hey congrats! i didn't know

sara- well the form shows pretty specifically that you need to prove income. however to me, the form does not look like you need to have a job... but then they wrote back to me requesting that I prove I have a job... so perhaps it is indeed necessary.
the temporary residence application was very different than the permanent residence application, and all information that was repeated they asked for again anyway.

lydia said...

Alessandra- no, you need somewhat less information and forms for the temporary visa.

if you are applying in chile,
the definite permanence is supposed to take around 6 months (possibly longer it seems)
the temporary visa varies from what i've heard. mine took 2 months. I have no idea how long it takes if you are applying in the US.

if you are applying in the US i would expect the process to be a little different, they possibly ask for entirely different forms and such (for instance, you wouldnt have a "tourism card" which they give you upon entrance to Chile and they ask for in the in-Chile temporary visa application.) I am assuming those things you posted are some of the requirements you found online.

If you are from the US, there are other differences too, for instance the temporary visa is free if you apply while in Chile, but costs a couple hundred dollars to apply through the consulates in the US.

As far as I know, there are no restrictions on when you can buy your ticket, however there are restrictions (often enforced by the airlines but not so much by Chilean customs) that you would need your visa OR proof of return/onward travel if you enter as a tourist.

Sorry I don't know too much about your case of applying in the US, though I would recommend, just knowing how these things go, that you apply as early as possible or makes sense.

Good luck!

Maeskizzle said...

Alessandra - Unless you have a reason to get the visa in the States (like if you'll start working with a formal contract here upon arrival), I would recommend getting it here in Chile. Because, the two co-workers of a friend of mine in Chile got their work visas in the States, and they had to pay the $400 dollar fee or whatever it is. Plus they had to go to the respective Chilean consulates in California and Boston - and that meant traveling from Colorado to California one of the guys. So his visa ended up costing closer to $800-$1000 I imagine.

If you get the temporary visa in Chile, you will have to pay for your tourist visa upon passing through immigration in the Santiago airport (which last I heard cost $131). But the temporary visa is free
according to immigration, anyway.

Good luck!

Matt said...

Ok, to avoid all the pain, hassle and waste of time, pay thegestor I know 70,000 pesos and get everything done for you by someone who knows what he's doing. Seriously, it's worth every penny. Every time someone writes about immigration I suggest the same thing and someone always replies 'why should i pay for something you can get done for free?'. My answer, 'it depends what monetary value you put on your time and stress avoidance.' Personally, I think 70k is worth it to not have to deal with extranjeria ever apart from when they stamp your passport.

Anyway, my permanent residency application went through without a hitch, ningun reparo from extranjeria (and they're pretty tough on investment visas so i was surprised). They're taking up to 9 months to actually complete the process at the moment though, which is a pain in the arse- having to carry the visa en tramite A4 piece of paper everywhere and explain to every single person that it has the same validity as the cedula is pretty annoying.

You send in the application for permanent residency up to 90 days in advance and it's well worth doing so if you can.

Alessandra said...

Matt- What's the deal with the gestor? Is that something I would do once I got to Chile? When I came on a student visa last year I paid the $131 entrance fee (which is good for the life of the passport). So can I just come in on a tourist visa for free, get my situation set up (job and depto) then get this gestor to help me with the rest? If that's the case, it's DEFINITELY worth the 70,000 pesos! If you could email me his contact info that would be fantastic:

Thanks for all of your help guys! I'll post when I get into the process!

Wednesday, November 25, 2009

Labor Laws or Labor Lies?

(Well, the title was that or "How I'll soon be an Italian celebrity")

I was contacted last week and asked to participate in the filming of a commercial. They said since I looked more European I could come early in the morning, dressed nice, and begin filming at 6am. Then, if I decided to stay later when a couple hundred other extras would arrive at 9am, I would get an additional payment totaling around $22,000 ($45US) for the morning.

I arrived at 6am, after having spent the entire night awake on my feet working the bar at a event. We filmed for a couple hours at dawn, basically walking back and forth on the street. It was freezing. Twice they let us get tea or café, and then literally immediately told us to dump it out so the styrofoam cups weren’t in the shots. I once tried to sneak a sip before tossing it and burned up my mouth.

Then when the large group arrived, we got into lines and walked to the other area for shooting. I wont go into details but basically we had to be standing up, spread out along the street, usually in the direct sun, for hours on end. Every time they called action certain people walked forward towards the camera. We got yelled at for sitting down, and some people were told that they couldn’t go to the bathroom.

The shooting continued past when everyone had expected or been told when they were hired. Finally around noon they started to act like we were wrapping things up. And we were, but just in order to take a 10 minute break. Taking a break means that there was enough remaining time to merit a pause rather than finish it before sending us home.

Everybody started asking how much time remained, when they could go home, etc… and the agents and production company would say vague things like “I don’t know, soon, it cant be much longer, just we have to get a special shot, etc…”

They said if we had to leave before they were done, that you wouldn’t receive any payment at all.

So we got back in place and spent another 2 hours out in the hot sun. My skin was starting to majorly burn, I wasn’t feeling so well, was getting very tired, but I figured that they would be finishing up soon, so I might as well just hold out til the end and get my money.

Eventually around lunchtime they started to mention things like “wrapping up”, “just a couple more takes,” etc… And we understood that pretty soon we could expect…
A lunch break?

They handed out a sandwhich and a banana for lunch. We tried to figure out the official deal with the timing and payment, but everybody said “I don’t know” or “It can’t be much longer” etc.

At around 3:30 pm we started filming again. I was so exhausted that in between every take I would just sit down in the street and let them fuss about it. They switched things up again, and I started to feel quite sick from the sun. I began to doze off there on the sidewalk and some of the production crew saw me and looked rather concerned…but you know, not enough to offer me water or let me sit out in the shade a bit. We decided to kinda slack off after that and just do whatever was needed to get by. The amount of people was large, so those in the back were somewhat less supervised and less likely to be seen on camera. But, they apparently had other plans for me., because someone came and got me from my seated position in the street and repositioned me right in front of the huge crane like camera, in the very front, leading the other 600 extras every time they shouted “ACCION!”

I was really starting to suffer. It was a miracle I didn’t faint. We did the takes over and over again. Then the switched up the positions, and I snuck back about 4 rows. Luckily at this point the sun was low enough that the buildings provided some shade, we did around 10 takes where I had to walk directly by the camera. Everybody was getting really annoyed and edgy. The director was in a good mood making some jokes about it being one of last takes. And then he would say “Just kidding, you really have at least 3 more hours to go!” Everyone laughed at his sarcasm and moods lightened up thinking that finally, it must be ending.

Until they finished up with that sequence and said that next they were going to move all of the equipment again and do a different take,. I was laying in the middle of the street talking with some friends and they came around and selected me and brought me up front with 3 other girls. The lady said they needed us because of our hairstyle or something, and we were going to have close-up shots of our hair. While they were telling us what was going on, everybody started to get really angry and crowded around the people from the production company. They said it was well beyond the time to go home. The people in charge started to get super cranky. They started yelling at the extras saying they couldn’t’ go home, or if they did, they wouldn’t get paid. Everybody was screaming and chanting, demanding more money, etc… Even random people on the streets and residents of the surrounding houses started getting involved. At one point the extras chased one of the directors into a store and they had to close up the metal garage door to keep the angry crowd out.

The production company was unable to get anything done and had to address the crowd.
They claimed the plan all along was to shoot til 8:30 and if anybody had a problem with that, they could present their “particular case” to the casting agents later. But nobody was convinced, especially since we all had the same particular case. Finally, after 6pm, He said they were willing to give $2,000 extra to anybody willing to stay til 8:30. Eventually they said they would pay $5,000 extra for anybody willing to stay, and that the people who had started at 6am were able to stop and go home, because they had “already completed their 11 hours.” BUT, those people who decided to leave “early” could leave, but they wouldn’t be paid til 9pm when everyone else gets paid at the end.

Probably half the people were infuriated and returned to the trailers to demand their money then and there, and some others were probably convinced by the $5,000 pesos to stay til 8:30pm which was no longer very far off. But then one of the girls leaked to me that the last scene required it to be dark outside, so obviously finishing at 8:30 was also a lie as it wasn’t even dark yet.

We went along with those insisting we get paid. But then they threw a second surprise at us. They weren’t going to pay $22,000 total, they were just going to pay $12,000… $2,000 more than everyone else for showing up at 6:00am, and nothing for staying nearly the entire day. In the end, they did give me money around 7:00pm. 13 HOURS ON MY FEET IN THE SUN. On the way home I was so hugry and thirsty from spending the whole day in the heat that I spent nearly half of what I’d earned that day, and as soon as I stumbled home so dizzy I could hardly walk, I felt so bad I got sick to my stomach, got in bed and didn’t wake up til Sunday afternoon.

Talk about treating your workers well….


Annje said...

That's awful... so abusive. I am curious as to why you (or others) stayed, I don't know if I would have, especially for the peanut-pay they were offering.

Marmo said...

Ese debiera ser el límite del lema "Just smile and nod"... Probablemente la productora tenía planeada esa agenda desde el principio, es un verdadero abuso. Sería bueno que las condiciones en que contratan a los extras en estas situaciones estuvieran por escrito; como generalmente no es así, toman ventaja de que no hay forma de comprobar cual es el verdadero acuerdo por el trabajo.
Como es posible que si tomas una pega similar en el futuro, sería bueno que quedara muy claro desde el principio que, llegada la hora de término acordada, todos reciben su pago, o se retiran; si acuerdan esto entre todos los extras, (sé que es medio fantasioso, pero vale la pena intentarlo), la presión estará en el equipo de producción, para respetar lo acordado, o decirles la verdad, lo que abre la posibilidad de mejorar la remuneración a un monto más justo por tu tiempo y el de los demás, sin contar con la exposición excesiva al sol.
Me gustaría saber de qué será ese aviso comercial, a ver si al verlo por tv se notan las caras de aburrimiento en la multitud.
Suerte para la próxima!

Maeskizzle said...

mierr.... que lata
That sucks!! What agency contacted you? The same one as for the desoderante ambiental commercial?

lydia said...

annje- for a few reasons we didnt leave. first of all, i wasn't aware the pay was peanut sized from the beginning. someone along the way lied about the pay. also, it was just one huge case of "well, I've come this far" Because we were at all moments under the impression that it was just about over. Also, in my case, although it sucks...taking part in a commercial, a massive event, and a protest is actually quite interesting. my alternative was going home and taking a nap. my body would have preferred the nap but my curiosity would have called my body a wimp. i was with friends too which makes things much more bearable.

marmo- yeah contracts would be nice but really even in stuff like this i've done in the US it hasnt been so official. its hard to do with a high number of anonymous-like extras. truthfully i didn't and wouldn't expect them to be that thorough... but i DO and WOULD expect them not to lie about it, and to be honest upfront.
I think many people thought of grouping together to work something out, but just the large size of us and the situation made it difficult to communicate, also the production company and agents were trying to make deals and such, which did win many people over for the sake of a couple extra mil. the majority of extras were young people who probably were exited to be getting money for this type of thing.

I'm really not positive if all of the lying was on the part of the production company or the agents. i know neither was upfront the day of, but i wonder who knew the real deal beforehand. perhaps the agents changed the facts in order to successfully recruit people. there was also no orientation no explanation, nothing.

No, I dont think it was the same production company, I dont actually know the name at all. But I got hooked up with this through entirely different means (and there were never problems like this before).

The commercial wont be on air in Chile, it will be in Europe. I'll post a link if I find it on youtube, and I have one of my family's old exchange students on the lookout.

Marmo said...

Ese último párrafo me ha dado más curiosidad. ¿Por qué habrán filmado un aviso comercial italiano en Valparaíso? ¿Será por las casas y ascensores, que se supone (creo) son como unos que hay en Italia?
Realmente me gustaría mucho ver ese aviso comercial, ¿Sabes de qué cosa es?

Marmo said...

Asumo que es italiano por el título alternativo "How I'll soon be an Italian celebrity" xD

lydia said...

No nos dijeron casi nada. I'll put it here if/when I ever find it. I imagine it wont be soon because of the editing process and such. I have no idea why Valpo. The part filmed with us was only on the streets, no ascensores... I would guess that the feeling of the city is similar to some locations in Italy, and they will do a lot of editing of the details, and perhaps they picked Chile for cheap labor (i.e. for me, jaja)

Sunday, November 8, 2009

How language affects thinking

Does language guide the way we observe and understand the world, or only the way we express what we see and know out loud?

Sometimes I get stuck pondering these questions. One odd language distinction that seems to come up often is the difference between squirrels and chipmunks, and the fact that most Spanish speakers won't differentiate between the two (saying both ardillas). Perhaps when I see one of those animals, I think about them differently based on my native language’s necessity to differentiate between them. My culture and language guide me into interpreting what I see distinctly. Seeing a squirrel, I would think of Rocky, or the Sahne Nuss character, but never Alvin or Chip & Dale, as a Spanish speaker might.

Or how about the use of Se me olvidó (basically, it was forgotten to me). This usually comes up when I’m eager to put the blame on my boyfriend for whatever HE forgets by complete fault of his own, but the way this expression uses the passive voice almost gives him an excuse by taking the blame off the subject. I often wonder if the way our languages put emphasis on different parts of the phrase actually changes our perception of how this event happens, perhaps saying this phrase makes a person feel more like it was out of their control.

I saved an interesting article by Lera Boroditsky that discusses some theories surrounding the first lines of my post. She acknowledges speakers of various languages have to encode different details of their experiences in order to verbalize them (sometimes gender, quantity, how you acquired the information, time/tense, whether the action was completed). However, the question remained of whether the reflection of something in speech actually means that people are interpreting or thinking differently, rather than merely saying something differently.

One very convincing example that Boroditsky gives in showing that language may indeed affect the way we understand the world are her experiments and research with the Kuuk Thaayorre aboriginal community in Austrailia. She said that instead of relative reference frames used in English like right and left, they use absolute reference frames such as North, South, East and West. This means that to speak these people must be spatially aware. In tests, they would always arrange events along a timeline going East to West, regardless of where they were facing, which also implies they must have always known which way they were situated during the test (as I am sure many English and Spanish speakers normally wouldn't. As someone who is fairly oriented this way, I know when people gesture to point they are nearly always pointing in the wrong direction, both for cardinal and relative directions).

I remember first writing about how language relates to time and how people interpret the world as part of one of my first papers in Chile, which I did about an indigenous group in the north, the Aymara, who see the past in front of them, and the future behind them, as their language does. Whereas in English and the majority of other major languages, we “face” the future, the past is “behind you,” and you “look forward to what the future holds.” However, the Aymara would say their future is behind their back and they are looking upon their past, so what they see in front of them they know to be true because it has already happened. An interesting quote reasoned that the Aymara had been described as really patient, because “'if you can't see the future,' says Marta Hardman, an anthropologist at the University of Florida, 'there seems less point in planning.'”

If you’re interested, this NPR story and the articles above also talk about many other examples, such as whether languages talk about duration in terms of length (“long time”) or quantity (“much time, big time”), our ability to distinguish colors based on our languages division into names, and also some discussion and tests about Shakespeare’s quote, “A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet.”

Because of these differences, in thinking of gender, time, etc.. learning a new language in some sense also means learning a new way of thinking.

I thought one of the more interesting topics were tests done about how language changes the way we think based on the assignment of gender, because thats something my mind has struggled with in going from English to Spanish. Boroditsky said in art 85% of the time things are represented as male or female depending on the concept’s Gender, (e.g. Russian painters painted death as a woman because the word is feminine, and German painters painted death as a man) and in the NPR clip it mentioned that people would have trouble conceptualizing an object as having a female name if the object is assigned male gender in the language. People also assign masculine or feminine characteristics depending on the gender given in their language, suggesting speakers of different languages have entirely different perceptions of objects. The NPR link has an excellent discussion of this involving the word bridge in Spanish (m) and German (f).

According to studies, this also happen when a person begins learning a new language with gender assignments.

This is one of the ones that seems to affect me the most because gender is something I understand in Spanish, but I still make mistakes. Not having a native ability nor all words so firmly ingrained, a reverse factor occurs in which the way I see the world shapes how I try to form the language. One of the reasons I make these mistakes is when the way I interpret and categorize the word clashes with the way Spanish labels gender (that is, when I'm not just taking a shot in the dark, haha). Perhaps as words and their genders become more stable in my mind, they begin to take on a slightly different meaning.

For instance a few times I have over-generalized and tried to make all words referring to men, with masculine word patterns, even though many words such as el artista, el policia, el dentista, etc.. don't follow that pattern and are actually correct. This is also why its difficult to learn words like el poema, el clima, and la radio (where the article doesn’t seem to have the same gender as the noun it precedes). Or words that might seem to portray opposite genders than what the object refers to. One of the funniest examples I can think of that clashes in my mind is la tulita (slang for “the penis,” but its feminine).

In fact one of my nicknames for my boyfriend means "little baby" in Spanish. But at first I felt silly using the word guaguita for a male, which is feminine regardless of the actual gender of the referent, and started jokingly changing the ending to a form which typically is used with masculine words. It stuck, hence ending up with the nickname guaguito.


Dana Elizabeth said...

awesome post Lydia. I find myself constantly thinking about how language forms a culture and how we form our own language. I heard from someone, I am not sure if its true that in german the verb is in the end so you have to pay attention until the very end of the sentence to know what is going to happen.

I find it absolutly fastinanting...can't spell that word...the part about seeing the past forward and the future behind, it twists my brain a bit, but I like it. I was talking with a german man once and he said USAians see their path and A then B then C very linear, where for example Kenyans (we were in kenya at the time) see maybe ABC and F but all at the same time.

I also remember, thinking back to the spanish language, that in Nicaragua I never used more than the present simple and past to communicate, granted I had just learned spanish. There was no subjuntive and rarely much use of the future, because it just wasn't necesary in their day to day lives.

I have a love hate relationship with modern language too, the idea that technology is forming so much of our language and concepts about comunication. I throw around the verb "to facebook someone" so much that I don't realize how this is new vocab word develoved within the last 5 years that has changed the form of friendship and personal communication ademas de the English language!

Finally, (your post really excited me) Alexis last night commented on how he wanted to speak English with his own voice, the voice he uses in Spanish, and while I am trying to give him the verbs and vocab to speak like he wants, there are just so many things that don't work and it frustrates him. I remember the same feeling two years ago and now I feel that a part of my personality changes when I speak spanish. I enter my spanish identity which has to be slightly different to use spanish and not just stay in the spanglish world. I love what language can do with just a few simple words...thank you for these links and this post!

Abby said...

Super interesting post! Sara showed me that article you talk about awhile ago and I found it fascinating. These are things I think about a lot. Thanks for writing this.

bcnnow said...

very good post -
another thing that is striking is the spanish word "esperar" which in many languages (like in French, and my native German) describe completley differnt actions from my point of view: to hope, to wait and to expect. It has been said that this says a lot about how spanish speakers see the world. So waiting for something ALWAYS implies some kind of hope! And to expect someone to do something, well you can HOPE and WAIT, but never EXPECT only (as the two former are always implied...) Thanks a lot for the link, too - there was one information in the link that really was new to me:

And that is how you would describe an object according to its gender - this is amazing! I never thought about it, but it's true - because for me as a german-speaker an object "has" its gender - and the fact that the Spaniards would use the "wrong" gender, does not really change my pereception of it...:)

lydia said...

Thanks for the comments guys, I think the topic is super interesting!

(Dana, and possibly the other two depending on how long you were on the page, I made a couple edits as you were posting because I posted this at like 4:30 am and noticed it wasn't quite as coherent as I intended haha)

Dana- I think the time part is really interesting. Its actually quite hard to conceptualize how its even possible to see time differently than I do, though perhaps with a language structure that allows it, my thinking would also be able to adapt. You know, the Nicaragua example is interesting, because I also notice that there are certain forms that are used to varying degrees in different regions and I wonder how much of that is language to thought, or the reverse thought to language. In Chile people often avoid using the subjunctive in ways I'd learned to in Spanish class, some people might instead use the present or infinitive in certain cases.

I know what Alexis means, its frustrating. That actually relates somewhat to my next post (haha, this was twice as long and I had to break it up!)

bcnnow- excellent example of "esperar," I love it. There are many words I come across in teaching in which I try to make clear the connotations of a certain word. I have noticed sometimes when I have obviously misunderstood a word or its connotation (not a real example, but perhaps I would say I was waiting for some bad news when I don't actually mean I'm hoping for it.)

I think its probably more on a subconscious level and difficult to test yourself, but you would probably find it interesting to compare the qualities of some words which have opposite genders in German and Spanish, as in the bridge example

Maeskizzle said...

Interesting post (and comments). I find this topic fascinating as well.

First, with regards to "Se me olvidó". When I was in Spain (Galicia), I had a grammar class and our teacher (a Galician, obviously) taught us those "se" expressions one day, like, se me olvidó, se me quedó, se me fue, etc., and she called this use of "se", "se irresponsable". hahaha The Gallegans seemed to be a very responsible people and apparently the irresponsibility of this grammatical structure was not lost on my grammar teacher.

And I had a bit of a language-learning epiphany with your post. I've read an article about the masculine/feminine in languages and the aborigines and how they order things...there was just an article on it in Time magazine. But reading about it again, in your post, I thought, probably one of the easier ways to remember whether an object is feminine or masculine in Spanish, is giving it a sex. I've never done that before. I've always just relied, on the basic rules, and memory for the exceptions, but I always forget whether "puente" is masculine or femenine. (I just looked it up and it's masculine.) I'm going to try to remember it with masculine attributes, like black and big, for example. You know, using association, to help the memory. That must be what native Spanish speakers do unconsciously when learning their language.

lydia said...

Did you click on the NPR link? It uses the puente example and it sounds like what you said is exactly what people must do. They said puentes were sturdy, big, strong, etc.. (compared to the German feminine word which was described as elegant, slender, pretty etc) haha.

That would be a good strategy for the words that always cause me a problem.

I should read that Time article. Ill look around.

Annje said...

Very interesting topic. After my own experience learning a second language, which I have spoken for years now, I do wonder though, how well someone from outside can really interpret how another culture/language views the world. I am thinking of those first Whorfian theories that claimed that the Inuit had all these different words/concepts for snow and that they obviously thought about snow differently... well, eventually it was discovered that they don't really have more than other languages or that it doesn't really reflect how they think about snow, it was kind of a misinterpretation (sorry, I don't have all the details top roperly explain).

I wonder if part of your question has to do with the idea of schema: a mental representation of concepts (i.e. the squirrel/chipmunk). Because Spanish-cultures probably only recently encountered chipmunks (past century), they just added it to their concept of "ardilla" (though certainly they must recognize the physical differences--but maybe it is like saying "dog" a concept that umbrellas a variety of breeds and dogs that look quite different) It is related to language in that your language will have words that represent what your culture knows about the world, when confronted with something new, you can either adopt a new word or add the new thing to an already existing/similar concept. Does that make any sense?

I love the "esperar" example, that has always perplexed me. And the representations of death based on the grammatical gender is fascinating too.

I have often thought about what it would be like to just have gender ingrained, you just know it intuitively. It bothered me for a while (not bother exactly, confused maybe) that puente is (m.) but fuente is (f.)... or the words like agua/alma/ala/azucar which are (f.) but take a (m.) article (i.e. el agua helada)

Anonymous said...

the whole snow thing is interesting. i´ve never read about HOW he claimed they thought differently, but i have heard about the doubt that his theory and the number of words is true. english actually has various words to describe snow. i think its obvious that different cultures will need more words to differentiate between things they actually encounter and less for things they never encounter. in the end i think its similar to the squirrel thing
actually i wasnt aware squirrels existed here either (probably should´ve said chilean spanish speakers instead of spanish speakers) but it is something they encounter in the media... i was just using it as a broad example of when a word brings up a different concept in my mind than a someone elses because of language. there is a way to differentiate between them in spanish but nobody really knows or uses it. despite the differences people are always really surprised when i tell them that the two animals arent the same (i´ve even brought pictures and been like... see? stripes vs bushy tail!)

yeah, saying ¨these questions^was very broad and i ponder a lot of related concepts. i ended up trying to narrow down the post a bit but its still pretty jumbled and perhaps encompassing multiple concepts...luckily is just a blogpost and not an academic paper haha.

of course i also quesiton how an outsider can interpret the world differently, but i think examples like the tests of chronological order and the fact that those people in austrailia always knew where they were is pretty good insight into measuring how this might be possible, also the examples like the representation of death. i think its quite interesting they are discovering some ways to possibly test it in which something is manifested that can more or less be analyzed, at the very least they´re exploring some interesting cultural differences whether or not it proves something.

Anonymous said...

quesiton how an outsider can ·MEASURE IF SOMEONE DOES· interpret the world differently

(this computer is making me really struggle hah)

Emily said...

Ok, I'm just responding to the very first line of this post because otherwise this comment would go on forever!

YES, language guides what we are capable of thinking, not only what we are capable of expressing. I took a linguistics course in college about the evolution of language, and it was interesting to learn that human evolution was really affecting by becoming physically capable of speech. Certain concepts (like hunting styles that require spoken coordination, for example) just would not have become possible, regardless of how big our ancestors' brains got, without the capacity of speech.

Rodolfo and I were also discussing this recently in regard to friends who had a poor education and don't have the words to express themselves in deeper conversation. I realize that sometimes it's just that they lack the words, but at the same time there are all sorts of complicated concepts that I learned because I learned the word for them. I don't think my brain would have just come up with everything in picture form if I'd never had to learn the words (the only example coming to my mind is "schadenfreude" which of course is German, but the principle holds true). Interesting post!